Claudia Orange, Moana Jackson, Te Papa Treaty Debates, Treatygate

Make January 24th a debate to remember

Te Papa Treaty Debates - Debate a l'Orange

Dame Claudia's Te Papa Treaty ‘Debate’, 2012.
On Thursday, let’s give her the debate she’s been missing!

For some time now, Dame Claudia Orange, that most inventive in-house historian of the bicultural bastion Te Papa, has been staging what she amusingly promotes as ‘Debates’ about the Treaty.

Now call me old-fashioned, but in my dictionary a debate is defined as a two-sided affair.

I’m not sure what dictionary Dame Claudia uses.

But in that curious volume, a debate seems to mean:

“Several members of the affirmative, no members of the negative — and no noise from the audience please!”

I took the above photo at last February's ‘debate’. I forget who the guy on the left was.

The others were:

Dame Claudia, Nin Tomas of Auckland Uni (crypto-communist advocate of the Bolivian constitution), Muriwhenua advocate Claudia Geiringer, and Dr John Burrowes, the Great White Hope of the Constitutional Advisory Panel, who seems to be proving pretty hopeless.

Anyway, 'tis the season for two more of these very agreeable ‘Debates’. (Debates, that is, where all the debaters are always able to agree. On everything.)

The first two to agree, as you can see below, will be constitutional lawyer Moana Jackson and Matthew Palmer, son of the inventor of the 'principles' of the Treaty. (Or, as we really ought to call it, the Treaty of Wellington.)

Te Papa Treaty Debate promo - Moana Jackson 24 Jan 13

What place would you find for the Treaty?
Make your voice count!

Now I hate to spoil a good love-in. But I think it’s time these Te Papa Treaty 'Debates' were more like, well… debates. (As defined by my dictionary, not Claudia's.)

And so, honest Wellingtonians, I suggest we form ourselves into the Negative team that's been missing in action all these years.

My dictionary doesn’t stipulate a maximum number of members, but somewhere between 50 and 100 would be ideal. Bring all your like-minded friends.

After all, Te Papa, we are told is “Our Place”. And “My Voice” — so the Constitutional Advisory Panel and Dame Claudia tell us — “Counts”. (As, it stands to reason, does Yours.)

What fair-minded public representatives we have!

And now they’re inviting us to a debate — about “Finding a Place for the Treaty”.

Inexplicably, they don’t say why we should necessarily find a place for the Treaty at all.

But, as it happens, I have one in mind — certainly for the piece of paper that Dame Claudia refers to as the “official” Treaty.

(As opposed to Hobson's final English draft, found in 1989, which the great dame strangely refuses to even mention in her updated and supposedly definitive tome The Treaty of Waitangi.)

So. If you have a place you'd like to put the Treaty, come and join me at “Our Place” next Thursday evening, January 24th at 6.30pm.

I'll be the one handing out Treatygate information sheets, and possibly waving a placard or two.

Te Papa Treaty Debate promo - Claudia Orange 31 Jan 2013

You too can review the Review.
Make your voice count!

If you enjoy next Thursday's ‘Debate’, you may want to come along to this next one a week later on January 31st.

As you know, the Constitutional Advisory Panel is very keen to hear your views on the place of the Treaty.

Let’s make sure they do.

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44 thoughts on “Make January 24th a debate to remember

  1. If only I lived in Wellington. I’m looking forward to hearing all about it afterwards.

    The only place for the Treaty in legislation is in the rubbish bin as it’s not the final draft and the only place for the true Treaty (the final draft) is in history. It achieved its aim long ago.

    Good luck people. Show their biased panel up for what they are.

  2. If only I lived in Wellington too! The only place for the treaty is to Burn,Burn,Burn it. It is the most divisive piece of fraudulent paper ever in New Zealand.
    I hope and pray that this year it is exposed for what it is…toilet paper.
    Go John Ansell

  3. My wife and I have a hotel room booked in Freemantle for the night of the Australia Day celebrations. It will be interesting to compare the atmosphere with NZ’s Waitangi Day ‘celebrations’ and I’ll be only too happy to note our findings/comparisons right here. Watch this space.

  4. Peter C
    Having been to a few national day celebrations Australia, Norway,Usa
    My wife and i thought it only right we do the same here in our own
    country so So Feb 6 1995 we visited Waitangi
    I can only tell you that it is an experience that we will never repeat

    Good luck with all your efforts John there are many that support you

  5. If I came, John you will need to muzzle me. I have too much pent up frustration to behave myself. I woluld probably need a bucket to spew in as well.
    The whole situation sickens me so much I had better stay at home and watch Asians trying to smuggle food items on TV1.

  6. It’s time to fight! We have sent 2 different letters to all MPs and sent letters with a copy of Doutre’s book to John Key, Metiria Turei and David Shearer for Xmas but haven’t had a Thank You letter yet!

    Read up on Agenda 21 http://www.morphcity.com/agenda-21 – (if you haven’t already) It’s the UN socialist goal for world rule and complete domination of the masses. The corporate iwi goal for a Bolivia type constitution ….. It all starts to make sense. The UN indigenous people in regards to Maori is just crap
    This is all being legalised behind NZers backs with no public consultation except the type at Te Papa.
    Hell, we want to protest with you! We need to do heaps of placard chanting protests, especially towards Geoffrey Palmer, his son and that lying Orange Dame need their BS shoved down their own throats. But to get up there to Wellington and back, there’s not much change out of a grand.
    We get torn bout spending our protest dollar wisely like that’s a lot of Doutre books we could post around.
    John, we offer you two hundred dollars go towards the pamphlets you’re going to hand out.
    We think NZ needs to hear the POSITIVE side of the truth not the negative BS from scammers and UN socialists.
    Very glad to have you active & fired up to rally around – you have our full support.

  7. Hello world. I received this today from Mike Shaw Conservative Party: Quote; On examining the facts you may find that Maori claims are not false and stand up to scrutiny of international law.(1) The Crown recognised New Zealand as an indepentent state and sovereignty of New Zealand Maori in 1835. (2) The Crown made a treaty with the same infant state in 1840 (3)The treaty regonised and protect the property rights of all New Zealanders. The treaty is the Magna Carta of New Zealand limiting the power of the Crown. (4) The Colonial settlers government (hiding behind the Crown) successfully dishonoured the property rights of the indigenous New Zealanders, breach of the treaty. (5) A process has been put in place and address these breaches and to determine the validity of these claims. Who arrived in NZ first is irrelevent, the treaty is the only thing that is stopping NZ from sliding completely into foreign ownership. regards Mike Shaw mike@heartofthenorth.co.nz Your views please….

  8. “Mike Shaw Conservative Party” ??? All 5 of his listed points are historically and factually bankrupt …. and the TOW …. the “Magna Carta of New Zealand” …. God spare us ….. how could anyone vote for this clown !

  9. Agreed, steve @ 5:32pm.
    Maori are the most **mollycoddled and compensated** group of people in the world.
    Show me ANY group of people who have received better compensation than the Maori.

    What about the tribes in South America?
    What did *they* get from the Spanish in compensation? **Nothing.**

    The RACIST Maori-first gravy train stops NOW. The RACIST Waitangi Tribunal stops NOW. **No more** “principles of the Treaty” BS in legislation – that too stops NOW.

  10. To Mike Shaw

    Others with a better grasp of history may do better but I will give it a go:

    (1) The 1935 Declaration of Independence, hurriedly compiled by James Busby was essentially an unapproved attempt by him to stop French Baron Charles de Thierry claiming 40,000 acres of land in the Hokianga that he had purchased from Hongi Hika in London. Most believe it was a drastic overreaction by him to the situation but he maintained he needed to do whatever means he had to him to stop the ever present French. The Governor of New South Wales had dismissed the document as a silly unauthorized act… arguably it is null and void because of this.

    (2) The Crown reluctantly acted in good faith as the Natives had made repeated requests for help as unscrupulous settlers were running amuck in NZ, natives had no real power to stop the developed world walking in and taking over, by force usually in those days. The TOW which supersedes the Declaration of Independence was a negotiation, rather than the usual take by force practiced in this era. A fairly simple document that noted 1) All Chief’s will cede sovereignty to the crown 2) the Crown guarantees to all the people of NZ that your land, property and dwellings are yours but the Chiefs must only sell land to the Crown 3) in return for this all the people of NZ will be protected and have the rights and privileges of British subjects.
    No special rights for Maori here apart from saying Chiefs must sell land only to the Crown the rest of the TOW is directed at ALL the people of NZ.

    (3) No problem

    (4) Both sides effectively dishonored the Treaty, 1st Maori rebels rose up against the Crown, this is in breach of the Treaty’s sovereignty article. They were warned that if this did not cease their land would be confiscated. They didn’t cease and as the Crowns role was to protect ALL NZers including the innocent settlers whose families were being skewered and the loyal Maori Tribes who were being slaughtered and taken as slaves.

    (5) The process that has been put in place to determine validity (Waitangi Tribunal) is a one sided political football that has nothing to do with fairness or law for that matter. How could anyone possibly think a kangaroo court that deals with the claims of only one of the treaty partners and does not here evidence from the other is anything other than racist money grab by and for Maori elite. To make matters worse they take the money to pay for alleged breaches from the ancestors of the people who were both on the receiving end and innocent members of the public. This is political suicide and I can see the hangman’s noose being prepared now.

    Mike Shaw’s 5 steps to redemption are a misguided, simplistic rant aimed at the uneducated.

    Talking about education I stand to be corrected if I have erred above.

  11. Very well said, Andy @ 7:53pm.

    I look around the world at various colonisations that have taken place, and I can’t see *any* that have been “set right” to the degree that things have been here.

    The ruthless Spanish invasion of Central and South America. The *vast* ruthless conquests of the Muslims – **unparalleled** in their cruelty and savagery. On and on it goes, and compensation for *any* colonisation is bloody hard to find. Certainly none in the two examples I’ve given. The Spanish and the Muslims, compensate the locals? Yeah, right….

    NOW is the time to **look to the future.**
    Maori don’t know how lucky they are.
    Monetary settlements. Land and assets (fisheries, forests) given back – land and assets that can be used to **generate income** for the iwi forever. Maori schools, Maori scholarships, Maori this, Maori that.

    I find it utterly *patronising* that there are people out there who think that Maori still need to be “babysat” by outfits like Maori Affairs and the Waitangi Tribunal.

    The best thing that ANYONE can do for Maoridom is to give it a splash of cold water in the face – to wake it up to life in the 21st century.

    ** No more Treaty gravy-train. **
    ** No more Waitangi Tribunal. **
    ** No more secret constitutional deals with the Maori Party. **

  12. What is extremely concerning about this press release from the Conservatives – if it is actually sent and authorised by them – is that not only is it factually false but that this party is (was?) the only one currently attracting the attention and support of many of the people like me and those who post on here. This was largely due to their previously stated positions on Maori privilege that aligned with our own. If they are now changing their policy to echo the status quo among NZ political parties, where does that leave those of us who want to see a change in political will to deal with the appalling racism that currently bedevils the country? NZ First??

  13. I will eat my hat if this chap Mike Shaw speaks for the ‘Conservative Party of NZ. I will check with the party Secretary on this one.

  14. That was my first thought too, Don. I wanted to see the actual material before inquiring with the Party. If you have contacts there, I’ll leave it to you and look forward to hearing of the outcome.

  15. The definition of a conservative that makes me giggle is: “one who believes nothing should ever be done for the first time”.

    Thus I am not a conservative.

    That said, I know and like Colin Craig, and we agree on many things. And I would be very surprised if Colin shares the apparent view of Mike Shaw on this issue.

    In fact, if this outburst is true, I would be very surprised if Mr Shaw puts out another press release as a Conservative Party candidate. 🙂

  16. Let’s hope you are all right about this Mike Shaw. The Conservative Party is in my sights for a possible vote at the next election but certainly not if this Mike Shaw is one of their MPs. He will do enormous damage to the Party if he is and his services should be dispensed with forthwith.

    I too have written in and will post any response.

  17. John, yours is but one small part of one definition of Conservatism. We Conservatives believe in things like very small government which treats everyone equally. Which exists under the rule of law. Which taxes from all citizens equally, and then only for absolutely essential needs. WADR, you should google the Bill Whittle series What We Believe. I suspect you’ll find you’re more Conservative than you thought!

  18. The definition of a Liberal is one who tries/accepts/allows all manner of things and then wonders why society is going down the gurgler.

    Still I think it’s important that we don’t get bogged down in other issues like political labels. If all parties had anti racist policies and had treated all citizens as equals over the last 40 years there would be no need for this campaign or website and we would all be arguing about other these other issues. On this we need to be united.

    Did anyone catch the latest nonsense over the weekend with our lackey PM unveiling a new ‘Cultural sculpture’ in Antarctica that ‘establishes a Maori cultural presence on the Continent’? What a load of bollocks. Maori never got anywhere near Antarctica. Their utter lack of any form of sophisticated ability to stay warm, a complete lack of interest in that part of the world and the fact that their little wakas would have fallen apart at the first taste of the roaring 40’s (never mind the screaming 50’s) meant their only experience of ice was dipping their toes into snow in the high country winters. It took WHITE EUROPEANS to overcome the conditions and forge a presence on the ice. But hey! why let the truth get in the way of Maori expansionism. It hasn’t bothered them over the last 40 years.

  19. It’s really beyond belief what Key will do next isn’t it, Mike. I would say if they ever made it to Antarctica it was because in their travels down this way, they would have missed New Zealand and ended up there, never to be seen again.

    As for them having some cultural ties with the place, please spare me. As you said, Mike, a load of bollocks. Did anyone notice how Mark Solomon (I think that’s his name) said very sheepishly (in my view) that they wouldn’t be claiming any part of it. Perhaps even he is starting to get the message that we are all fed up with them and their greed.

  20. I am saved from ‘eating my hat’.
    re Mike Smith the message from the Conservative Party as follows;

    Hello Don, Can I please start by saying that Mike Shaw in no way whatsoever, speaks on behalf of the party. Mike Shaw claims to be a supporter of the Conservative Party, but has never been given the mandate to speak on behalf of the party, as he has many personal views that do not line up with Party thinking, nor party policy. We are now handling this matter internally to try to prevent Mike Shaw from speaking ‘on behalf of the party’, going forward. Thank you for your defence of us in the forums, as you are completely correct in your statement that Mike Shaw does not speak on our behalf. Any form of press statement will always come via our Party or Press Secretary.
    Kind regards

  21. It says “establishing cultural presence”. In no way is this a statement that Maori made land in Antarctica. Do the people on here, only read 1 line of every article? It would appear so.

  22. Why the need to establish a ‘cultural presence’ if they never set foot on the place?

    I guess, Bessie, that many of us are fed up with ‘cultural’ anything because it is rammed down our throats at every turn. We are totally turned off by the word ‘cultural’ big time!!

  23. I would imagine the fact, that many visitors and part time residents of Antarctica are in fact New Zealanders, and would be interested and gratified that Maori have established a cultural presence in Antarctica.

    In reality, the only people that appear to be complaining are the people on this site.

    So, you do not like Maori, Helen?

  24. I have many Maori descendants as relatives, friends and acquaintances and you would be surprised how many feel exactly the way I do. They feel it is demeaning to continually elevate things ‘Maori’. They just want to be equal with everyone else and just get on with their lives without any special distinction, blending in with everyone – just like the Treaty was for. They actually find all the ‘Maori’ favourtism, assistance embarrassing as well as demeaning.

    I actually look on them as equals and don’t even think about their bloodlines as they are decent people, work hard and don’t hold their hands out. They are indistinguishable from others of non-Maori descent and this is what we must work towards for the whole country.

    All we want is equality with everyone treated the same. All the separatist divisions are dividing our country and I never ever dreamed that one day I would feel so anti, like I do now when even non-Maori events have ‘Maori’ blessings and so forth. I have absolutely no problem with these things being done for ‘Maori’ events but they are unwelcome otherwise.

  25. The problem with your ‘cultural presence’ Bettie is that it is NOT a NZ cultural sculpture on the ice. It is most definitely and most deliberately a ‘Maori presence’. The sculpture (once again the ubiquitous fern frond – yawn) was specifically made by a ‘master MAORI carver’ to a MAORI inspired design and unveiled as such in a MAORI ceremony. No other ethnic group got a look in – despite it specifically being White people who own the ENTIRE human history of Antarctica with ZERO Maori input.
    If as you claim this type of art is actually NZ art, why do Maori own the rights to it – ie it is not possible for anyone to use any Maori type inspired icons without Maori approval and payment to them? This does not exist in reverse – Maori can do anything they like with anything developed by other ethnic peoples in our country. If Maori were in the least bit serious about genuine integration they would not object to anyone doing anything with whatever icons they liked from whatever source they liked. However they most certainly do object – because it is part of the fabric that allows them to assert the separate rights and privileges they so greedily have and want.

  26. Perhaps Peter meant Armstrong as in Neil, the one who first set foot on the moon. After all it can only be a matter of time before someone with some Maori ancestry decides that our nearest planetary neighbour is overdue for a claim or two

  27. And the justification will be the song “Under the Maori Moon”.

    (Just as Maui’s throwing a net over the sun to slow it down will allow them to claim the proceeds of daylight saving.)

  28. wow just found out that a bunch of white guys who own the entire human history of Antarctica, commissioned Ngai Tahu to complete the sculpture. crazy what were they thinking – approaching a maori carver and asking him to do a sculpture. Did they not realise that they may end up with a Maori design. Oh no it gets worse, staff at Antarctica also helped finish the sculpture. The world has gone mad , mad I say. Holy crap – the same bunch of white guys who own the entire human history of Antarctica, also approved the sculpture.

    I hope you realise how pathetic you all sound.

  29. Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    You need say no more, Helen. . Your speech is clearly divisive. And is a clear indicator on exactly how you feel about Maori. So you would like all aspects of Maori culture removed from our nation?

    Why was this question not published? My other comments were. Is the question not allowed to be asked? Or do you only allow insulting remarks about Maori on this site?

  30. “wow just found out that a bunch of white guys who own the entire human history of Antarctica,”

    Took you a long time, but unlike many other fables it is in fact true, and can be proven by a well documented history. Written that is.

  31. Owen: yes, just turn up.

    I would suggest coming as early as possible, as they might try to fill the place with fellow travellers, then tell the majority, “We’re full”.

  32. Mike; yes, I was having a wee chuckle to myself with that post, glad you got the joke. It really is a question of “what’s next?” isn’t it?

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