NZCPL Constitutional Debates, Te Herenga Waka Marae, Victoria University - NZ Centre for Public Law

Constitutional Debate III – VUW marae, 6.30 pm, Monday 22 April

VUW marae

Te Herenga Waka Marae, 46 Kelburn Parade, Wellington,
venue of the third NZCPL Constitutional Debate.

Tomorrow is going to be a busy day for me, with my 11.00 am meeting in Waikanae followed by a drink with Lindsay Perigo.

The first event should go well. The second could be dangerous. (‘Perigo’ is Portuguese for danger.)

So could the third. Assuming I’m fit to drive back to Wellington — and assuming the man on the roof doesn’t get me! —  I’ll be at the above Te Herenga Waka Marae, 46 Kelburn Parade, at 6.30pm for the third of the NZCPL Constitutional Debates.

Here’s the blurb:

Maori Aspirations for Constitutional Change

Featuring Tai Ahu, Dr Rawinia Higgins, Veronica Tawhai, and Valmaine Toki

This debate brings together four newer voices from the Maori community to discuss the nature of Maori aspirations for constitutional change, broadly conceived.

The discussion will move well beyond the status of the Treaty of Waitangi, and include consideration of alternative models of Maori-Crown relationships, the development of a kaupapa Maori or tikanga-based constitution, and Maori constitutional aspirations in the context of indigenous peoples’ rights at the international level.

I hope to see you there. Oh, and if you’re wondering what that character on the roof is so steamed up about, here’s the back view…

VUW marae - Kupe and dog

Kupe and dog, Te Herenga Waka Marae, Victoria University.

As I write, I’m listening to the National Radio broadcast of Constitutional Debate II, to see whether they broadcast the first and second questions, asked by myself and John Robinson respectively.

(Encouragingly they did broadcast my first question last week.)

UPDATE: They did broadcast both our questions — well done, Radio New Zealand.

They also broadcast a much better question from a young man whom I congratulated for asking Dr Maria Bargh:

“I have a dream that one day my daughter will grow up to be judged on her merits, not on the colour of her skin.  If the electoral racial preference becomes entrenched, how will I explain to her when she grows up that she is a second class citizen, and how will I explain to her that I let it happen?”

Bargh gave an oily, wriggly, incoherent answer that amounted to: I couldn’t care less.”

Maria Bargh is a tribal one-eyed racist and a danger to New Zealand.


55 thoughts on “Constitutional Debate III – VUW marae, 6.30 pm, Monday 22 April

  1. Hi, yes the new maori are moving beyond the treaty. Perhaps they see it for what it was. Perhaps they read it in maori?

    Elizabeth Rata seems to grasp this new strategy. She is speaking in may :

    “Democracy & Diversity” – Elizabeth Rata

    May 23rd, 2013 6:30 PM   through   12:00 AM

    10 Grafton Road
    Business School
    Owen Glenn Building, University of Auckland
    New Zealand

    1. It’s so close to the 80% mark it’s scary eh? (We keep seeing 80% don’t we?) Surely the majority can’t be ignored forever. The sooner there is a New Zealand Day the better.

    2. I fear that if ANZAC or any other day, becomes NZ Day it will probably be taken over by the grievers instead of/as well as Waitangi Day. The last thing we need is griever maori polluting ANZAC Day and given air time on this sacred day.

  2. It never ceases to amaze/annoy me the statement ‘Maori aspirations for constitutional change’. Why on earth do we have to have these divisions – ‘Maori this and Maori that’? Why cannot it be New Zealanders? It sounds as though ‘Maori’ have different aspirations to the rest of us when I’m sure there must be a good cross section of views one way or the other, just like with everyone.

    It’s time we left these divisions behind us and focussed on being a country inhabited by New Zealanders.

    1. Agreed. New Zealanders together can do great things, carving up the population just creates animosity.

      I can’t wait to get my new passport and tape over anything that doesn’t say ‘New Zealand’.

  3. Just listened to the Radio broadcast of debate III.

    Were Palmer and Bargh holding hands?

    Great that John Ansell, John Robinson and the other young man (who borrowed so well from Martin Luther King) managed to be heard on the recorded version too

  4. Heard today that “3rd Degree” on TV3 this Wednesday is titled

    “Are We a Racist Country?”

    I understand there is some form of vote involved but don’t know all the details. It will be interesting to see how balanced it is.

    1. Paying for racism is why I left the country. Anti-white racism is fine by me, just having to cough-up the hard-earned is what put me off the place.
      (Also the deteriorating living standard, seemingly exponential crime increase, cheapening of human life etc)

      The venue pretty much sums up the outcome the overlords desire. Luckily in this instance the truth is unafraid.

      Regarding Perigo, the man is talented and his work backs that up (I’m thinking tv tax). You might want to keep an eye on him though- from (hazy sort of disinterested) memory he subverted the ACT party when they still might have had relevance?

      [I know I’m an opinionated b’stard who no longer has a “dog in the fight”, so I’ll cease the occasional comments if the blog owner and readers so wish]

      1. DDude your opinion is as valid as any other out there as far as I can see, your not abusing anyone verbally why retreat into a cave?

        dondiego you gotta expect a bit of flak for bailing but c’mon I for one appreciate your input. . . Harden up ow 😉

      2. Your opinion is important. The problem is that, for anyone, not of a given race, just the mentioning of the name of that race makes them appear racist.
        Born in NZ ,as my parents were before me I have my four grandparents from four completely diverse places, so I can only relate to NZ, but I feel alien as the bitterness,ethnic separation and prejudice of some people gets disproportionately predominant in law, media and society.
        Oh for a simple country , one man one vote, equal taxes for all, equal opportunity- caring based on need, not creed or race.
        I hope you will want to return one day.

      3. Fell free to keep commenting, although phrases like ” Anti-white racism is fine by me ” are worrying. That is the opposite of what we are standing for. NO racism is fine by me.

  5. Hi, I am totally agree from these false divisions now of Maori -pakeha. I listened into RadioLive the other day as I heard that Susan Devoy was being ‘discussed’. She was, by W and JT. They went on and on discussing whether she had Maori blood/why didn’t she talk about it etc. So I phoned in and spoke about some Ngai Tahu lineage that was on my Mother’s side. I pointed out that there are probably thousands or millions of kiwis now like me – and probably Susan, who are ‘mixed’ but look pakeha , as well as all the others who identify themselves as Maori but in reality have often less than…? what nobody knows. I said that in the history of settlement Maori women were on the ships from day one – and that some of the sailors went bush and lived amongst them. I asked W. and JT why keep ‘dividing us’ when we can’t be anymore? I asked them about their mixed lineage -yes acknowledged. I suggested that Willie could just as well be taken for a Mexican if he put on a a sombrero and he laughingly agreed that when he was in Mexico everyone thought he was Mexican!) I also spoke about the necessity for the ancient wisdom of Maori to be revived and I had written about this at AUT in my education paper as something for all New Zealanders.
    But there was no way integration would be acknowledged and W said we are Maori if we are “brought up that way”?! and then started to get nasty. I should have asked him if he and other part-Maoris were brought up on a Marae.
    The vested interest in keeping ‘Maori’ as a concept of a seperate group is strong and I think the only way is to call out the falsity of this at every opportunity i.e. don’t use the word anymore, only part- Maori or ….? How about inventing a catchy word such as “Maoripaki”, “Euromaoru”, ‘Pakemao” (I’m laughing now). Suggestions? It is well known that a catchy word will be taken up if put out there. The grievers won’t like it but until we can all say we are New Zealanders -and this should be constitutionally recognised in my opinion along with the cultural integrity of all New Zealanders.

    1. I listened to the constitutional debates on radio NZ’s podcast download to MP3.

      People who publicly espouse the separatist constitutional State, like Dr Maria Barge and when questioned can only resort to blaming public ignorance of history – that they themselves are romantically reinventing as they go along, for self centered gain, from the privileged pulpit of Academia, must be challenged and prevented from doing so.

      She does not live in a tribe, tribalism is a precursor to Democracy.
      She has the the huge benefits of strong principled people who forged their place in history to allow the emancipation of Woman and a free vote for all citizens.

      Where are the informed academics like Russell Stone in Auckland who had the mana and courage to publicly decry a Dr Susan Healy who is in the same “promoter of false information camp” as Barge. see link reference below.

      These people are then quoted as fact by the similar self-serving blowhards like Willy Jackson who has the public purse for endless media access and so prejudice with ignorance abounds to new heights.

      We must challenge both, a legal case could be made against them – Jackson is plainly prejudiced labeling anyone who speaks the word Maori (that is not one themselves) a “redneck”.

      Enough is enough.

      The separatist seats must go, we don’t need more politicians and our new technology allows for easier voting and more informed referendum style government. Retain the 3 years. Geoffrey Palmer quotes lack of time for poor quality lawmaking. He should read W. Edwards Deming, the man who helped rebuild Japan after WW2 whom I had the pleasure to meet. Deming clearly shows that quality in management and human endeavor is a different paradigm not dependent on time. Palmer is a true gentleman and I respect his knowledge but he is way out of whack when he has written about “equality for all” on the one hand ,and seems to push for a separatist race-based almost schizophrenic “twin headed monster” Constitution on the other.
      Surely Thomas Paine was more advanced in his thinking back in 1776.

      Palmer will fail , lost in a trail of poorly written legislation.

      But we are all the poorer for it.

      Oh my God – pass me another Gin and Tonic. I’m not leaving this land of my birth.

      As an aside Matthew Palmer quotes and uses the Sir Hugh Kawharu translation of the treaty which is ever so slightly false.
      See what Russell Stone made of the Kawharu version of history from the above article.

      [I was present at the lecture and heard with some misgiving what Professor Kawharu had to say, although mollified somewhat by his admission that what he was presenting was a version of the past from “a Ngati Whatua perspective”.

      1. Hi Davy2012.
        Interesting post, as I too have been listening to podcasts
        One on Outspoken, 4th January 2013 had Hugh Kawharu’s daughter Margaret speaking along with Dreaver (Crown Negotiator) about a recent Ngati Whatua Kaipara settlement.
        Oddly, what stood out to me was that Margaret sounded like the quintessential pleasant English country gentlewoman – except that she used maori terminology.
        And IMO she is very fortunate to have had a privileged academic background and resources to sustain her influential position at the settlement table.
        Ironically, of course, she, as a unique human being, could not exist without all aspects of her heritage, much apparently derived from the conveniently maligned English aspects!

    2. wow Carol. I like your thinking, the combination of parts of words to create a new meaning – I’m not keen on the “pake” bit as I’ve never liked the term pakeha and refuse to use it to define myself. But the concept is great and could well take off and lend political weight to the central idea of us being one nation of many peoples

      1. I do not agree with trying to come up with a Maori word to describe non Maori people. The idea is appalling and racist. I do not define myself by Maori people and/or Maori terms.

        An appallingly racist situation already exists in this country with the term ‘Pakeha’. It is a Maori word that means “white skinned, foreigner, stranger’. To call someone a stranger/foreigner in their own land is about as bad as it can get, white skinned or otherwise. The fact that many native New Zealanders are happy to let themselves be referred to by this term says a lot about the institutional racism and lack of awareness that exists in our society.

        Quite apart from the deliberate slur inherent in the term, it is also extremely ignorant for all who use this term to lump all white skinned people together in this way. There are a huge number of different white skinned cultures in the world, at least as many as any of other colours. Would all who use or tolerate the term Pakeha feel just as happy if Maori were called Black Negros or Indians?

        There is a parallel between the term Pakaha and the term Nigger. In fact unlike Pakaha which is inherently offensive, Nigger was not initially an offensive word. It was simply a slang term for Negro, similar to calling someone ‘whitey’. Over time and perhaps because it appears to have originated in the slave trade it became seen to be offensive. Today if you were to use this term in public many people would defend a recipients right to punch you for the use and a court would likely fine you and invoke provocation as a defence for anyone charged with assaulting you. Yet despite the term Pakeha being by definition more offensive than Nigger and despite many people objecting strongly to the continued use of such an appalling and out of date term, it is trotted out daily in common usage.

      2. In my post I spelt Pakeha as Pakaha a number of times. I of course meant Pakeha. A combination of poor typing skills, and a lack of time/poor proof reading. I apologise.

      3. Mike, you are right that in fact “pakeha” is arguably more offensive than “nigger”. Nigger (or Nigra) is nothing more or less than a Southern US pronunciation of the word “Negro” but the politically correct of the world have chosen to claim that it is entirely meant to be insulting or offensive, so they have made it so. Originally it was not. No such excuses can be made for “pakeha”, which I have always rejected.

    3. Nice post Carolyn. We do have a creative genius in the author of this blog, hopefully JA can come up with a suitable term . A maori word would be good.

    4. When I was growing up in the 70’s and 80’s we would in an affectionate or jovial way call maori’s “hori” and they would call us “honki” so following on from Carolyn’s suggestion we could use the word “honki-hori” to describe someone of mixed blood.

      1. How about Hanumi-
        Maori dictionary definition below.

        “hanumi1. (verb) to be merged, mixed, homogenised, combined, swallowed up.
        Ka hanumi te waro ki te kohu, ka pango te kiri o te tangata, ka rite hoki te awatea ki te pō, ka mau te tangata i te raiti hei raiti mōna i te awatea i ngā tiriti o Rānana (TP 2/1903:2). / The coal combines with the fog, one’s skin becomes black and daylight is like night. A person carries a light in daytime in the streets of London.
        2. (noun) mixing, interbreeding, intermarriage.
        Ko te hanumi ki te Hainamana me te Hinitū he mea wetiweti rawa (TTT 1/8/1929:1039). / Intermarriage of Chinese with Hindus is a very undesirable thing. “

  6. Apologies for the grammatical mix-up in the first line. It should read “I totally agree with the falsity of dividing New Zealanders as ‘Maori’ and ‘Pakeha’.

  7. I wouldn’t take to much notice of this:
    No numbers given
    No demographics
    No definition of racist ( I would probably vote yes for entirely different reasons to others)
    Bias to younger tech savvy audience
    Filters to prevent multiple votes?

    Waste of viewing time other than Phil Goff’s comments about equality.

  8. Typical maori to grab the ‘we are the victims of racism’ mentality. “It’s not our fault, it’s the evil racist white mans fault”. Yawn zzzzzzzzz…
    Last time I watched this nauseating PC drivel, I swore I would never waste my time again. I mistakenly thought tonight may be a bit better. Wondering if it has occurred to those idiots that maori have a higher prison rate…..because they are responsible for the crimes?!. I have a maori friend who has never ever been to jail….because he has never ever ever committed a crime. It aint rocket science! DUH!!

    Incidentally, I laid a complaint with the Human Rights Commission in late March, and got a case number and a promise I would get a response within 15 working days. I gave a handful of examples that maori had special rights and privileges over non-maori. I gave hard evidence with actual names of organisations and phone numbers. I e.mailed today asking why they have taken longer than the 15 working days…but got no reply. I will follow this up until I get a reply.

  9. I totally agree with you Graeme – the problem is the politicians and treatyist will use that program as validation!

    This is what infuriates me!

    We have so many bimbo’s in our society these days, they take votes like that as gospel without ANY critical thinking whats so ever!

    Now that it has been said on ‘The Vote’, it is cemented in stone in people’s weak brains that New Zealand is a racist country.

    Hell, even Devoy was sitting there saying ‘Well, the people have spoken’.

      1. Totally agree. Seems she is terrified of saying anything that would upset the fraudsters. It’s always been easier to upset white people so that may be the safer bet.

  10. Why is it that when EVER racism is brought up or debated it is always about how the europeans treat other groups.

    When will anyone have the balls to ask Europeans how THEY feel racially marginalised?

    You know, I am fed up feeling like I have to be the ‘bigger person’ all the time because I am European.

    I am fed up with minority groups constantly demanding more of my people to prop them up.

    I have had a guts full of it!

    All that programme did was push us further apart.

  11. But Trina, NZ is a very racist country….how many other countries have so many laws favouring such a race of lying phoney frauds? Why are this said bunch of fraudsters allowed so many entrenched privileges, special rights, etc etc that the remaining 85% of us are not entitled to? So, for probably different reasons to those PC braindead bimbos on TV3, I would say NZ is definitely a racist country.
    At least Don Brash said it, albeit in a very sensitive way.

    1. Yeah, I said to my partner that the question is VERY open. When people vote ‘yes’ what are they voting ‘yes’ to?

  12. Davy2012, Coincidently, Dr. Susan Healy spoke on the TOW to the Whangerei U3A yesterday. She asserts a flag sporting a Union Jack combined with Maori motifs was registered with the English Parliament in 1835 guaranteeing them sovereignty. The person who organized Susan to speak should contact John Ansell to also speak to give some balance.

    1. My understanding is that the flag came about because shipping from NZ to Sydney needed to fly an identification flag but that the Union Jack was adopted at the signing of TOW 1840 as one would expect when Queen Victoria became sovereign of NZ.

  13. ‘Is New Zealand racist’ is a very ambiguous question. Whoever answers that question will have mixed views of who this question is aiming at.
    I think the most racist are radical maori like Willie Jackson and his ilk.
    If the question was “Are radical, separatist maori racist”? Then that’s an easy answer, for me anyway. If the question asked ‘ Are NZ non maori racist’? For the me the answer is an absolute no
    The question of “Is NZ racist” needs to be more specific to get a more accurate and definative answer.
    I didn’t watch the programme, but I’m surprised no one brought this up while the show was being aired.
    Funny how the bias media didn’t jump on Willie (Mugabe) Jackson when he said “all farmers in NZ should walk off their farmland and give it back to maori”. That’s part of the maori privilege of being able to say and be as racist as you want with complete impunity.

    1. Marvin, I agree with you very much. If I had answered the question “Is NZ racist” I would have answered a bit fat yes, as I’m sure many did. I believe we are a racist country and this is not caused by the majority but by the minority of grievers who are continually holding hands out and also trying to maorify the country at every turn with the help of the appeasing National Party. Things ‘maori’ are seeping/creeping into our culture daily and overtaking everything else.

      The question could have been taken either way and I’m sure it was by someone with an open mind. We are a very very racist country indeed and it’s time racial equality was introduced so that we can be one people under the law. It’s up to the Government but I doubt it will happen with the current one. We need a new one – run by either NZ First or the Conservative Party.

      I’ve written to 3rd Degree and told them as much. It’s amazing how people can look at something with jaundiced eyes and think it is telling them something when it is in fact telling them the opposite.

      And yes, Susan Devoy certainly isn’t inspiring confidence in me. I feel she is going to be a pushover and is probably out of her depth. She probably has no idea of what is really going on.

  14. Why is the Treaty being turned upside down with our pre-Maori history being so aggressively covered up and rewritten???

    Can our politicians really be so stupid???

    Page 147 on Twisting the Treaty that explains it all!!!! (See Communist part-Maori self-determination Policy 1935).
    This communist party plan outlines how to destroy democratic capitalism by using minority races. Remember that Geoffrey Palmer who has much to do with promoting the false treaty lies is also a Labour Party Socialist.

    There’s also a link (below) which explains the UN Agenda 21 plan which is an unbelievable fact. In a nutshell, its’ mission is to force a global socialist government and give trees and animals equal rights to humans.
    Its only barrier to success is European western capitalist democracies. Agenda 21 sees European middle-class people as the biggest threat to the environment. They are doing their best to make western democratic countries collapse economically.

    The ‘Man-made’ global warming debacle was Agenda 21 propaganda to scare the world into global government which they almost succeeded in achieving before the lid was blown off the ‘false science’ not unlike the ‘false Treaty of Waitangi’ claims.

    Progressive Ideology is a way of thinking that is rapidly growing like cancer amongst our political and bureaucratic elite. This thinking vilifies white European, wishing to ‘dumb down’ and side-line them on one hand whilst on the other hand to raise up minority indigenous races to a superior height.
    (Thanks for the link Tamati).

    It sounds insane we know but what’s happening in this country is also insane until you learn about Agenda 21 which is making a global national park for the rich under guise of ‘Saving the Planet’.

    This plan is a nightmare for the majority of the world population and MUST be fought tooth and nail.
    Their method of achieving this goal is exactly what’s happening in NZ; the massive transfer of wealth and power to Corporate Iwi, a self-interested part-Maori minority.
    Right now behind our backs they are trying to destroy our democracy and force non-Maori into second-class citizens.

    So, for all our sakes . . . listen to this U Tube link to Agenda 21 and get wised up.
    Let me know what you think; I think it’s happening now and been happening for a long time!!!

  15. It is slowly emerging that the attacks on Susan Devoy and her recent speech may be…politically motivated. What a surprise!! Those despicable greedy fraudsters don’t want her there so maybe they feel the need to get one of their own in instead. After all, they are used to having their ‘yes men’ in whatever positions they desire. The Mad Butcher (Peter Leitch….not some now honourable maori chief!) says there was nothing wrong with her speech. He was there listening so he should know! These low life greedy fraudsters don’t like it when it does not go all their way. If Susan has spoken out and made some truthful observations, then good on you Susan. Keep it up!

  16. Perhaps this means she will be okay after all. What an utter disgrace they all are – the critics and the media for going along with them. Like you said, Derejk, if Peter Leitch said there was nothing wrong with her speech, then I’m sure there wasn’t.

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